Anjou: Right, we're going to talk about the band and then we're going to talk about politics.

Alice: It's the same thing.

Anjou: Right, we're going to talk about how the band got started, and what was the initial idea to start a sort of activist group.

Alice: No, it was just an accident. I mean, we were just friends. We lived in a house, squat, together, I mean it was big enough for all of us, and basically because we were all into DIY punk rock, we thought we might as well be a band. It weren't like a conscious thing at all. You didn't need any talent. If you could bang some spoons together you could be in Chumbawamba, you know, it weren't "To be in this band you have to be able to do this, this and this." But as it turned out, you know, we could all do different things. I mean, I'm not musical at all for instance, but I can write. Some people are really musical but they're not really interested in writing. I can't sing but Lou can sing and Boff can sing; but I'm quite willing to make a fool of myself in public. And we never did think what sort of a band we were gonna be.
It were always completely obvious, because we were fairly immersed in politics, and at that point we were fairly puritanical - I think that's cool, but when you get into anything for instance, you're completely obsessional. And we thought, we were convinced, that we would keep it to a point that everything we did had to have a political context. Now, I think I'm more political than I've ever been, but I'm far lighter than I were then. Looking back, we were a wee bit fake, really, in that it weren't really things that you thought out for yourself. "In order to be political, you tell yourself this, this, this, this and this" - but, at the same time, I think we did amazing things together, 'cuz, you know, we're still friends.

Anjou: So are you still living together?

Alice: No, me and Danbert share a house, but it's my house that we all lived in. Well, it wasn't my house, not then, but I pay rent on it now. Two of us living in the same place. Christ, no, it lasted about eight years for most people, and then three of us four years. But we didn't have personal money for eight years. And we shared incomes: any money we all got, like odd jobs, we shared, and all this sort of business. And we really tried hard. We did things that most people would never even consider. And I'm much happier running my own life than doing it by process and negotiation; but I still think that the fact that we did it is really cool 'cuz most people have got all these ideas about, you know, what it is to be political and "things'd be perfect if we did this and this."

Well, I've done it and I know it won't be perfect, you know, but I think they've got good intentions. I know, like, you know the fact that things that we took for granted were each other, about not being selfish with money and the fact that somebody'd have to cook every night. Somebody'd make bread every fucking morning, you know, now I'd go to the shop and I'd buy a loaf of white! But, we did things that in retrospect were amazing, just because you do them for other people knowing "Look, it's my turn"; and I think most people get together and they've got all these ideas of what it's like to live in a group, but they actually don't take on responsibilities for making other people feel alright. And we did, but having said that I fucking hated it 'cuz, like, you had no privacy at all. And I'm much, much happier, two of us live in our house and nobody lives with us. It's a good thing to try though, and that's how we got together.

Anjou: What do you think about Peter Tatchell and the group Outrage? How do you feel about that? Do you feel that it helped fight homophobia, or did it hinder it?

Alice: No, it's not hindering it at all. I don't give a shit about vicars for a start you know; why should I care about whether a vicar's sensitive about his sexuality? Or the fact that he's preaching a religion that's basically homophobic in itself is enough reason to out him; and also you know it's his sexuality, it shouldn't be a political issue who you sleep with or I sleep with or whatever; it should be no big deal. Unfortunately people live in this climate where it is a big deal and we're all meant to be ashamed if we're not straight. It's like going "I sleep with my own gender, look at me I haven't got two heads." When I was growing up there weren't any queer role models and -

Anjou: It's still hard to find queer role models now. I mean I'm queer but it's still hard to find role models ... especially in Northern Ireland.

Alice: But if you think about it now, in the 60s it was impossible. You know, Elton John all the way through the 70s and 80s was still saying "I'm not queer" because people were so scared of being victimised. Freddie Mercury ... You know, the more people come out and say "I am queer" or "I am bisexual" or whatever, they seem to realise how normal it is to have deviant sexuality; but deviant in a good sense, not somebody else making your mind up for you about what you like to do in bed but the fact that you can make your own mind up. And also, I think things become normal really fast. The number of people that are homophobic just have to get over it when it's in their face.

Nine: It took longest to change the age of consent here, it happened in Great Britain and they didn't do anything about it here. My friend Jayne and I, we wrote about it to our MP James Kilfedder who just died last week, we were the only two constituents - not even constituents, actually - who wrote from our area, I don't know about the rest of NI; and then it got changed.

Anjou: Well he himself was gay.

Nine: Well that Outrage thing was trying to out him but it's not known if he really was gay ... I thought he was nice, I mean at least he got that done.

Anjou: He didn't come out.

Alice: But it didn't matter. But the problem is not other people saying that "You are gay", the problem is people are obsessed by the inference that we might be gay and I think that's a problem in their personalities. It's like Jason Donovan going to all them lengths doing The Face because they printed a picture of him wearing a "Queer As Fuck" t-shirt. That says more about Jason Donovan being a wanker than it does about Outrage. If you really aren't prejudiced why would you care if somebody said you were queer? Why would you care? You know, you'd just say "Well, fine, I don't have a problem with that."

At which point everything becomes too hard to make out, and then the tape stops, and nobody notices for aeons.

Other side:

Nine: The bloody thing stops and you never know.

Alice (continuing whatever we've missed): I don't think you're easily comfortable with yr own sexuality whatever you are, whether you're bi, straight or gay, because there's a lot of pressure that we're, like, supposed to know what to do, supposed to know how to deal with things, and we don't actually live in a culture that's so positive, so people are scared to death. And if you're heterosexual it's easier because it's everywhere you look, things to say how you're supposed to do it. Unfortunately people don't do it as they don't look beautiful or they can't do things to the same standards and they're less positive about it and they give me "Am I good in bed?" You know, I sleep with men and women, and most of the men I've slept with are so insecure about sex it's unbelievable.

Anjou: Right, in relation to freedom of speech do you think the BNP and other fascist groups should have the right to spread their propaganda?

Alice: No I don't at all, but I don't think it should be the government that stops them, I don't think it should have anything to do with legislation, I think it has to be ordinary people, people like me and you that actually go and stop it. They can't ask the government to go and do its dirty work for it because the government always have interests to protect. If the government's stopping the BNP it's not 'cuz they're against fascists or it's 'cuz they think that the BNP isn't all that strong in England, it's 'cuz right through to the early 90s the government did the BNP's work for them. They had really racist immigration policies. People have been victimised. They had black ghettos in every city, the government already discriminated against people easily and illegally. Look at the way cops treat anybody who walks down the street that ain't white. So I don't trust the government, I don't want them legislating away the fascists, I think it's more up to the people to stop them and it's up to people like police to start spreading more education type stuff, but a lot of fascism is just ignorance.

Anjou: When the fascists turn up at your gigs, as they have done before, do you ever get genuinely scared?

Alice: Yeah, yeah.

Anjou: How do you deal with that?

Alice: I'm scared a lot of times but not so scared that I wouldn't carry on and do precisely what I said I'd do before they turned up. You don't have to be all brave but you've got to not be so scared that they've won. But we're really lucky in some ways 'cuz when the fascists turned up at the last two times playing in Leeds they've been faced with a group of people that won't put up with them, and they've been outnumbered so they don't have a fuckin' chance, and I feel really good about that. I'm amazed that they can't just bully people. I hate the way the people who stock our records have been put out of business by the fascists, things like that, I hate the fact that the fascists are looking for my home address, because when they turn up, I'll be on my own. You know, I fuckin' hate it. I don't think the way to stop them attacking me or other people is to keep quiet, that won't help, that'd just make them attack more people. I don't think they're everywhere, I think they're a minority. Unfortunately they're mad fuckers, they've got two brain cells rubbed together, most of them. I mean they're dangerous but they're not winning.

Nine: Who chose the name Chumbawamba?

Alice: Oh, it's just rubbish, it's gibberish.

Nine: Who came up with it?

Alice: Dan, I think.

Anjou: Is there any reason, or just ... ?

Alice: Oh, I could tell you the lie, the lie is it's "piss off" in Swahili, that's a lie, but the real reason is just so uninteresting it's not funny.

Nine: The "Homophobia" single got to Number One in Israel, have you played there or anything?

Alice: No, we want to; but getting to Number One in Israel is a bit of a misinformer, 'cuz it's not on record sale, it's on how much airplay you get. What happened is that there were all these cabinet scandals going on in Israel and one of the cabinet members got kicked from the cabinet for being gay, so it brought up all this discussion, and during that discussion "Homophobia" popped up, so they played it to death. But I think that's great, when something happens in real life and a pop song is to do with it ... But no, I want to play in Israel, I've tried to but nobody wants to see us.

Nine: I think I heard there's lots of really good stuff [music] doing really well over there.

Alice: But it's not even the country if you think about it, you know it got to Number One in Israel because it got loads of radio play; whereas Radio One couldn't play it because it had the word "piss" in it.

Nine: I just wondered, what does yr family think of Chumbawamba?

Alice: My family think that I descended from the devil and I'm the worst thing that could possibly happen to them! But my mum loves me anyway; as for Chumbawamba ... Actually I don't get any hassle at all off my family, I mean all I've got is a mum, my dad's dead, you know he thought that I needed exorcising and he thought if there was some black plague that descended from above it'd be Alice Nutter. I wasn't what he wanted but, my mum's easy, I mean she's not particularly interested in Chumbawamba and she thinks that half the stuff I do is hilarious. She's not too keen on the fact that I'm a rioter and things like that, but she's got a certain amount of respect in the way I am. It has nothing to do with all that "oh I come from the straightest working class family going", I just think that's completely uncontrollable, but my mum's boyfriend still calls me a communist and still tries to throw me out of his house, which is hilarious 'cuz that won't get anywhere calling me a communist, I'm an anarchist.

They can't get it right, they're so clueless. Because if he gets too paranoid about what I do on TV, they've an immediate puncture. What if it's me on TV? I'm fine about it. I'm just like, "Oh that's me on TV." When I see my friends on TV, not necessarily the ones out of Chumbawamba, but you know, people that I've talked to or people that I like, I'm jumping up and down, like, I just come over really excited! [Transcript appears to go off at a tangent about getting Chumbawamba's message across via TV, that sort of thing.] I don't think there's any point in watching TV at all and wearing a smile, you're wasting yr time. Well, every time I go on TV, I've been on TV quite a bit, they always stick me on at three o'clock in the morning but I'd never waste an opportunity I always think, especially live TV, you've got to use it and stick in what nobody else'd stick in.

Nine: Have you ever been badly represented?

Alice: Oh god, yeah.

Nine: Apart from, like, The Sun and stuff, maybe in the NME ...

Alice: Oh yeah, yeah, all the time. [...] It's just political interest has gone sour, and Rage Against The Machine have done fuck all, they know fuck all. Or it's credit, they think they're important but in actual fact they don't know anything about anything apart from being a fuckin' pop group. I think it should kick back against all that stuff about we "should be part of history" and all this here. What I'm saying is that you can't trust the press, you can't believe the press. I'm a bit bitter but the press is so unpitiful, they can say whatever they want about you, and they've got quite a lot of influence really. In England we've got bigger audiences, it's just nothing to do with the press, just 'cuz people like us as a live band. In some ways the press have got a strong position. But we've always just took it as just irrelevant, you know, why should I care, it's just some sad little bastard in his bedroom, and just the idea of these like shitty little men ... they're not little, they're usually mid to late 20s that feel that they have all the symptoms and that they're untouchable, and they don't have to tell me things about anything. There's about three people [journalists] that I really want to punch that I don't want to have a conversation with.

Anjou: Who are they?

Alice: Well one of them's that guy that did that big thing ... I don't care if people don't like us musically or lyrically, who gives a shit, I don't have a problem with that, that's easy, but these guys, they know that we've got good halves, they don't pay when they see us, but they don't mention "Showbusiness!" at all, they just went on about how we're fuckers 'cuz we applauded when the IRA tried to blow up the Conservative Party, and they went on and on and on about it, stupid fuckin' idiots, and I mean it got really personal, you know how ridiculous it's all. I read an article saying we've got BO! You know, it's like the world is saying we've got BO. But they get away with it, you know, people think we smell! They think Chumbawamba smell.

Anjou: What was it like to play Glastonbury in 1994 [televised for Channel 4]?

Alice: Media circus. The audience were alright, the audience were great. The audience were fine but backstage were horrible.

Anjou: Were they?

Alice: Yeah, honestly, the people couldn't've been further up yr arse or they'd be coming out yr throat. It were terrible.

Anjou: Are you gonna play Glastonbury again?

Alice: Well, festivals are great actually, for the number of people seeing you that wouldn't normally see you. We're gonna do the Phoenix festival.

Anjou: Did you get any more work for Credit To The Nation? [Anjou has a crush on Matty Hanson, fact fiends.]

Alice: Well, Boff and Harry have just produced the next album. Matty is a really nice lad, he's our friend, we see him quite a lot, but I don't know whether we'll do anything more with Credit To The Nation and Chumbawamba. But Boff and Harry have just spent two months in the studio.

Nine: Why was it that Jamiroquai slagged off the "Enough Is Enough" single?

Alice: What planet is the man on? He said, "I was anti-fascist before Chumbawamba, I invented the anti-fascist pop song." Fine! What is it? I don't know. You know, "My pubic hair's longer than your pubic hair." No problem with that, good on ya.

Anjou: Is there anything else you'd like to talk about, or do we have it covered? It's your interview so you just cover what you can cover.

Alice: I've not particularly got any sort of obsessions ... I've just been told off actually, 'cuz all the interviews are just "Showbusiness!" and I talked about interior design ... It's not really strictly relevant is it?!

Nine: How do you imagine yourself when you're 70 years old?

Alice: I want to be like an old lady in a flowery daisy dress, I've got it all set up. I've got a few tattoos and I want to live in Whitley with my friend and she rides horses; she's going to keep riding them and I'm gonna have cocktail afternoons with all the young boys and the fishermen and all the interesting eccentric loonies. They'll come to my house and take drugs and get pissed out of their brains. I've got it all planned out. I'm gonna wear either just black cotton, or I'm gonna wear this, like, straight dress with daisies on. Me and her have planned it all out, and she's gonna still carry on riding horses, see, and I'm a really bad Martini addict. So that's what I'm gonna do. Having said that though, I'll have no pension, I've never had any money in the bank, so I'm saying I've got all these things planned with me and my friend in Whitley, but I've no fucking money and I've got no chance of getting any!

Anjou: Win the lottery!

Alice: No! I'm not gonna cheat ... you've got to actually live. You know, find boring jobs for the next twenty-five years ... fuck off!! Why have a boring job?

Anjou: Well I think we've nearly finished, one last question.

Nine: Do you believe in god?

Alice: No, absolutely not.

Anjou: If you did believe in god what would you say to him?

Alice: ... You think you're so fucking clever!

Anjou: Fine! Good enough!

Nine: So that's it really ... [I always find it hard to just switch off the machine ...]

Anjou: Yeah, we've got the tape ...

Alice: Alright.

Anjou: Thanx, that was really good.

Alice: No problem.