Q: Do you mind if I get the "Tubthumper" stuff out of the way first?

A: No, no, just do it.

Q: Alright, so tt's coming out anytime soon?

A: Erm, in america, probably in september. We're just trying to work out a record deal and we haven't found one yet and we think we've found somebody that might be alright. You know - we've had some really big offers and i think we're going to take a middle one. But, basically we're just glad to get something out in america cos at the moment you've got to buy all the stuff on import and people can't get it and it costs a fortune.

Q: Yeah, I can only find your stuff at mum and dad shops.

A: Yeah, going with One Little Indian, we actually did better, you know, before we were on OLI for getting records over to america.

Q: So what happened there?

A: We had a really unhappy year and its completely . .. i have no faith in reocrd companies large or small in terms of people saying indies are better than majors. well, we've been with an indie and it's not true. It's just small businessmen that'll screw you for more if they can because they need the money more.

Q: Grasping for more.

A: Yeah, and their inability to tell the truth.

Q: How did that affect you?

A: Well, it meant things like releases being cancelled and nobody telling us. And we went with OLI because we knew the head of the company from years ago - he was in a punk band. And we thought "Oh great - ideologically it'll work out, he's our friend." You can't pretend to be friends with capitalism. You've got to see it for what it is and screw it back. Capitalism's capitalism. There's capitalism that pretends to be nice and capitalism that doesn't and I think I'd rather deal with capitalism that doesn't cos I think it's a bit more honest. At least you know what you're doing. But, we told OLI that we wanted to leave in December and then they dropped all the bands three weeks later. But they were running out of money. But rather be honest with the bands, they just didn't say anything. They just stopped answering the phone.
Prodigy and Chemical Brothers are next big thing over in America.

Q: They're pretty much there already with the Chemical Brothers putting out that single with Oasis - I used to have a bit of respect for them...

A: Well, i thought that single were alright. i like Oasis. i met 'em a couple of times. i think they're alright. at least they're working class. i hate blur. blur are like middle class lads pretending to be working class. everything's so 'mockney'. Their idea of working class culture is just a cliche - at least Oasis are for real.

Q: But I've got a bone to pick with them cos they smashed up one of the studios here in town.

A: Really? Oh, i'm not saying they're not idiots. I'm just saying they're genuine idiots. At least what you see is what you get. Blur is a market construction. I hate kula shaker. Now, i really hate Kula Shaker. They spent a fortune on a marketing campaign for Kula Shaker and luckily it's done nothing. You know it turns out that Crispin Mills used to be in a BNP band? And then there's all these stupid quotes in music papers saying hitler was an alright guy, he knew more than he let on. They're thick as pigshit. You know Crispin Mills is Sir John Mills and Hayley Mills' son? Sir John Mills is his granddad and Hayley Mills is his mum. Get back to public school you little wanker!

Q: Is it not worrying if they're putting this out in the paper and the little fans are reading it?

A: Yeah, but they are thick. Let's get this right - they are truly thick.

Q: But if the 15 and 16 year old kids are reading this and they're fans of these bands, don't you think that they're going to take on some of these ideas?

A: I know, but I refuse that arguement because that's the arguement that's used for censorship - I can handle these ideas, but other people are more stupid and can't and I don't accept that. I think you should let people say what they want to say and then punch 'em!

Q: I was reading on the "Showbusiness!" innersleeve about the Brighton bomb changing the band's attitude to pacifism etc. Was it just that or. . .?

A: No, it were miners' strike. Before miners' strike we said we were pacifists and we got really involved in miners' strike. As soon as we were on a picket line, it was us versus the police and we knew we weren't pacifists. passive is the last thing we felt. it was just a situation of never being tested. you know, it was a nice idea. when we first became anarchists, everything were new - it were like being born-again christians! it were like - "oh, yes, if we're really good and we make a peace sign at the world, then the world will be a better place." Well, that's not how the world works. And that's a neo-christian idea. You know - you can lead by example. Well, we don't wanna lead. I don't agree with this premise that all you have to do is set a good example because capitalism's not like that. You can set a good example in a corner and it'll walk all over yer. you have to fight back. And in the miners' strike, we ended up fighting on picket lines. And I don't think we were ever put to the test in terms of pacifism, because for me it were quite a nice idea because i come from quite a violent background, so the idea that violence is unnecessary and unattractive - if somebody hits me, i want to hit 'em back and i would hit em back. You know - the idea of pacifism made me think "Oh, there's got to be a better way than your dad always hitting yer". But, pacifism in terms of the state works in the state's favour, not in yours.

Q: There's an argument here over the second amendment that if you don't have a gun, the only people with one is the government and they'll use it against you.

A: Yeah, there's about 34 sides to every arguement isn't there? my problem with all these things is - who decides? who decides who gets a gun and who doesn't? and most of the time it's the state and they never decide for honourable reasons. so, you know, it's not that i think access to guns is a good think, because obviously i don't. i wouldn't be able to get a gun. i don't particularly want one. you act in circumstances that are fitting. i think that violence is totally necessary, but it fits into a point in time - it has to be apt. And at the moment, if i went out with a gun killing coppers, i'd spend the rest of me life in jail. and it wouldn't make any difference.

Q: Depressing isn't it?

A: Well, it's not depressing, you just have to sensible and do what you can do. it doesn't bring me down at all because you have to look at the whole picture. In the 80s there were the real idea that if you were an activist, that were all you had to be. Well, I don't believe that. I think you can spend all of your time doing things and none of it thinking. Never thinking "Is this actually any good?" Who am i pleasing? Am i pleasing myself or am i changing the world? Am i making myself feel more horly? I think some activism's fine, but activism for activism's sake is like a religious thing again. It's your protestant sacrifice.

Q: At the start of "Homophobia" on the 'Showbusiness' album, you've got that little intro about how powerful deviant sexuality is. There are some who would find it as another put-down, another depressing thing to deal with. How do you see it as powerful?

A: Because transgression is powerful. The people who are willing to transgress and stand out are the people who change the world. And it's powerful in that it's an affirmation for other people who think "Well, I'm not straight down the line hetero". It's powerful because it says something joyous to them. And it's powerful because there's a thin blue line in all our heads in what we can do and what we can't do and if you cross this line something terrible's gonna happen to you. Quite often you cross the line sexually and nothing terrible happens to you. I'm not talking about AIDS because AIDS can happen to anybody, that's a different line. The idea that you can come out and be openly gay or come out as a drag queen and live the life you want to live as opposed to being this closet repressed 2 by 2 family person. And transgression is powerful because it gives you the life you want.

Q: And also, the more people who do it, it shows more people, especially teenagers, people who are really confused ...

A: Yeah, the idea that there isn't only one way. I hate moralism. I think it's a really dangerous thing. The problem with morals is that people see them as fixed - as something you can't cross. But morals are a shifting concept - they change from decade to decade so you can never trust them.

Q: Do you think all this suppression stems back to religions and christianity? Or does it go further?

A: I don't know. I'm not meaning to not know, but I think it's probably a range of things. Not just religion and christianity, but religion, christianity, money. Things aren't simple. You know, you can't get rid of capitalism tomorrow and we all have a happy ever after because men still have more power than women. If I'm still washing up I'm not happy ever after.

Q: I was reading an answer to one of your FAQs on the web and you were saying you want to get rid of money. Then what?

A: But that's not enough. For a start, we don't have anywhere equal gender relationships anywhere. You know, the most basic thing is that er . . . I'm going to be totally boring, but men do not take half the responsibility for anything really. You know, in child care, it's really rare that a man's life is affected. They get to have children and a life. We get to have children. If we work, we still have to organise, we still have to nurture and these things don't come naturally - it's the social system. I obviously think it's set up so the balance of power always rests with men, and it has shifted in terms of women having more freedom, but now what we've actually got is the freedom to go to work and the freedom to come home and work aswell. It's not like we're going out to work and coming home and the domestic side is half taken care of. I come from a radical culture - and my girlfriends are still fighting. It's not like everything is fine and dandy and we're all equal. And if you look at political culture, women are only involved as long as they're single. When you talk about "women being more visible" and "women's lot", I think women do have a better chance now of making music but only because they're fighting tooth and nail because you don't get it any other way.

Q: You get all the men choosing what bands will make it.

A: Or you get the idea that if you come out as a pouty little chick, then you're more likely to get exposure. At the moment we're going through post-feminism. You know, the right is selling us this idea that what women really want is to be like brainless gigglers and feminism's held us back. You know - that it's denied us our rights to be mothers, it's denied our rights to be stupid, basically. And it's all the right's theories, but unfortunately it's going right through popular culture at the moment. It's redefining what rebellion is so that it's just a short skirt and a bit of bubble gum. The thing is, I found like I wander round in a sack going, you know, "I want to be hairy," I don't want to be attractive. And I think it's my right to be open and sexual and it's my right to get dressed up, but that's not all I want to do. I'm not into the idea of politics as anti-fashion, but, you know, in order to prove your political credentials, you've got to look like you've been dragged through a hedge backwards. That's just like saying "I'm not a part of society" and I'm saying I am a part of society.

Q: That's another thing I read you saying, that poverty and just putting yourself down has been glamourised.

A: Yeah, I think quite often they come from quite middle class families.

Q: Yeah, a lot of it is middle class guilt. But that can't help at all if people are saying how great it is to be poor.

A: Well, it's people with no real politics saying to other people "If you don't live like me, then you're not changing the world." Well, capitalism's quite happy to let us do without. It loves us doing without. More for the rich.

Q: I'm going to make a huge swing back to the album.

A: Go on then.

Q: You were saying how it's all changed again. You've got trip-hop and jungle in there as well as the regular pop stuff. And you were also saying about punk as change. So this is another change. So you're still punk. How has it changed and I was wondering who else you've stolen from and what you're "pop-lifting".

A: Loads and loads of jungle stuff at the moment. Harry - the drummer, basically - got really into jungle and dance music and lifted stuff from all over. But at the same time as lifting from dance music and lots of different jungle djs like LTJ Bukem and different Grooverider stuff, it's also got loads of working class culture bits in it like "Brassed Off" - dialogue from that. So it's a real mish-mash. We'd be crap if we just stole from one area. It would be straight plaigarism, whereas we steal from so many areas that we seem to get away with it.

Q: Have you had any repercussions about the Elvis sample in "Slap".

A: No, but we're having real trouble with all the samples on "Tubthumper".

Q: You feel like you're going back to "Jesus H Christ" again?

A: Yeah, well, it's just hell. We're not up on the concept of paying for stuff and we're having to. In some ways I don't mind if it's reasonable, but some people are wanting ridiculous sums.

Q: Give us an example.

A: Well, the Queen won't let us have hers.

Q: There's a surprise.

A: We were going to use something from Asian Dub Foundation and they said yeah it was fine with them, but their publishers have just got demands that mean we have to take it off the album. As well as money, they want points on the album and all that sort of business.

Q: So is the regular the bands are fine with it and then the business types are not fine with it. Is that what it is?

A: Well, it depend which bands really, doesn't it?

Q: Are you going to put out another bootleg like Jesus H Christ?

A: I don't know. I don't know who did that bootleg.

Q: It wasn't you then?

A: Well, I can't say "Oh yeah, we put that bootleg out".

Q: Oh yeah. (laffs). So the album's out in September, hopefully, over here.

A: Or October. But it will come out.

Q: Is a tour going to follow?

A: Yeah.

Q: Really?

A: Yeah.

Q: Sorry, I know I sound shocked . . .

A: I know, well, I'm shocked. I mean it's been bloody years. We couldn't afford it. We lost five grand last time we came over. And we did it on a shoestring. So without record company support, we have no savings anymore. Without record company support, we couldn't do it. But, we've been to Austin, you know. We played there in '91.

Q: That was the Cavity Club wasn't it?

A: Yeah. There was a scrap and we said unless you stop, we're going to stop playing. And they didn't so we just stopped playing and put our stuff away. We said, "right we're going to carry on and we're going to give you ten seconds cos if you want a fight you may as well have a fight to any music - we're not supplying it."

Q: I was reading about the gig in Tennessee. What happened there?

A: With the anti-abortionists? Well, they were pillocks. They were absolute idiots. They were sixteen-year-old boys, basically. You know, screaming "Murderers!" at us because we were pro-choice and terrorising the audience. And I don't think they considered the possibility that if they carried on, we'd thump 'em. Cos they were actually having a go at the audience and bullying them. And I'm not willing to have a sixteen-year-old boy telling me what I can do with my reproductive rights. But the funny thing were, I were dressed as a nun at the time. So when we got off stage and started this fight, this look of absolute shock on this lad's face cos there were this nun running towards him with steel toecaps on. But the worst thing is, I kicked him in the stomach and as I did it I realised, I thought, "Oh, he's only eleven". I'm beating up children.

Q: You're going to get put away.

A: No, I haven't had a fight since then.

Q: Right. Did you have the boxing gloves on?

A: No. It were extreme circumstances. They formed a line between the audience and us and started shoving the audience around and shouting "Murderers" and all this sort of business and they were punks. They were vegan-reich kind.

Q: Veggie punks.

A: Yeah. And it were like young boys acting hard. And I don't think you should do that unless you can back it up. I don't think you should do it anyway, but, you know, you're especially stupid if you think that you can, you know, just come up with a bluff. I mean, there's eight of us on stage and ten of them. What did they think? That we were going to say "Sorry, we're going home."

Q: Speaking of Pro-Choice, I was chatting with Iain Thompson on the chat list and he wanted me to ask you something. There's a thing called "RU486". Do you know about that?

A: Is it a pill?

Q: Yeah, he says. "It's a contraceptive which was withdrawn after protests from anti-abortionists. It was also available at minimal cost, making it available to developing nations. What have you heard about this?"

A: I've only heard of it really vaguely. All I knew were that it were a pill. I've got some make-up called "Are You For It?" So I thought it were a brand of make-up. (laffs) I don't know what it is. And I don't know whether it's available in other countries as in force-fed people and misinformation, or ...

Q: He said it's being tested in France.

A: Oh, that's a lot better than being tested in Ethiopia, which is what they used to do. They used to just send it over and give it to people without telling people what it were. You know, deciding basically that because people were black and undernourished that they didn't have the right to have children. And they'd be undernourished cos they'd been shipping the crops over to us. God, I'm a miserable bastard aren't I?! Sorry! I'm not like this all the time. Honestly. I'm normal. I just have normal conversations. Honestly, whenever anybody says something, I don't go "Hmm, the political consequences of this are such that..." I'm like anybody else, I think "Oh, I've run out of bread and I've got to go and get some milk." Because I'm not a vegan.

Q: So what happened with that? Are you still vegetarian?

A: Yeah, but it's just a habit, really. What actually made me think, "Oh it should be more than a habit," were the McLibel people. That McLibel trial's just been on telly.

Q: Obviously the news over here isn't going to talk about it at all.

A: Well, we're putting it in the album. It's what I'm doing right at this minute, actually. It's these two anarchists - actually, Helen Steele and David Norris are the most anal people on earth. What McDonald's have come to know is that they picked the two people who'd be willing not to have a life. And they're nice and everything, but I don't think I could summon up the determination they did. But they took on McDonalds and they're beating them. McDonald's barrister gets two grand a day plus expenses. And he has a team of workers behind him. Morris and Steel are up every night. And they've done an excellent job. They've made McDonalds look really shoddy and really stupid. It's your classic David and Goliath. I honestly thought "If they can spend their entire life from 1986 til now - " McDonalds issued the libel in 1990, so that's 7 years fighting a corporation " - i can honestly say that meat will never ever pass my lips again."

Q: So, have you seen the country change now that Labour's in charge?

A: Nah. No. People are optimistic which is odd, really, because they're going to be disappointed. I mean, Labour have been elected because they're Tories. You know - they've got the same policies as the Tories. People are still being thrown off the dole, they've got the same work fare policies, they've been elected because they've appeased business. People have got all these hopes that somehow we're going to return to a more socially aware system and to a more caring system, but the system isn't caring. Forget it - get a life.

Q: It's the same over here. Blair just seems to be following Clinton. That's what he did over here. He's just gone so far to the right to get all the votes in.

A: Oh, he's hideous is Blair. He makes me feel sick. The night of the election I were up all night cheering but every time it went on to Labour candidate it were like somebody had deflated me balloon. Cos every time the Tories got kicked out it were like "Yeahh! Yer bastad yer gone!" But then it would cut onto this red suited yuppie and I'd shrivel up in my chair again.

Q: Here's the replacement. Here's what you've got to deal with. . . So what do you think of the French elections, since we're talking politics.

A: What, going more to left? I think they're different than England. They've got a much more radical - a more contemporary radical - history. We all suffer from memory loss here. We don't know what happened ten years ago. I think France is a different culture. The thing is, I don't actually believe in electoral reform. I don't believe in reformism. I think the short-term gains of it are good for people's lives, but in the end, the things that we need to do to change the world are much much more radical than tinkering with the system. I don't believe in the idea of voting and handing over power to somebody because it's got too many chances to go wrong.

Q: Just putting someone else in charge - you've still got someone in charge of you.

A: Yeah. I believe in organising in small groups and changing people at points of power on a regular basis. I'm not talking about four years - I'm talking about fortnights!

Q: So, going back to the band, how did the Bullshitting tour go, the little one?

A: The little one, the toilet tour? It were absolutely great. Cos we were playing in really small venues and we weren't selling out cos we didn't have a product out - we were just seeing if we liked the songs and we discovered we loved 'em. And we were really lucky in that people that turned up at gigs liked 'em aswell. No, it were good.